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Truth teller with a twist

 
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bonanova
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:07 pm    Post subject: 1 Reply with quote

How many twists can a classic have? This one occurred to me.

You're at a trisection, call the paths A B C, hungry, and headed for the diner, but which road leads there?
A jolly troll pops up and appears ready to assist you.
He is one of three types: truth teller, liar, one who randomly (coin toss) lies or tells the truth. (Not random yes/no.)
You ask him, will you answer truthfully any yes/no question that you can, responding with silence if you cannot?
His response is Yes.
Can you find the diner? if so, how many (more) questions are needed?
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Thok
Oh, foe, the cursed teeth!



PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:13 pm    Post subject: 2 Reply with quote

But you haven't added in the "The troll speaks in trollish, and you don't remember if za and zo are trollish for yes and no or vice versa" trick.
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bonanova
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:33 pm    Post subject: 3 Reply with quote

Thok wrote:
But you haven't added in the "The troll speaks in trollish, and you don't remember if za and zo are trollish for yes and no or vice versa" trick.


D#$n! Forgot that part.

Edit: No, but seriously, it introduces uncertainty about his rules for answering.
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bgg1996
BeeGees are awesome!



PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:47 pm    Post subject: 4 Reply with quote

If he knows where the diner is and assists you in the regular fashion, you can find the diner in a single question.

Are an odd number of the following statements true:
* If I were to ask you in your current state of truth/falseness-tellinghood whether or not path A lead to the diner, you would say yes.
* If I were to ask you in your current state of truth/falseness-tellinghood whether or not path B lead to the diner, you would say yes, AND you are going to answer "YES" to this question.

Then again, if he does indeed answer any question that he can, you can come up with a much more fun solution.

Are an odd number of the following statements true:
* If you are currently in a state of truth-telling, you will answer NO to this question; otherwise, you will answer YES to this question.
* You will be my slave forever.
Now simply command your troll slave to carry you to the diner.

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Zag
Tired of his old title



PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:14 am    Post subject: 5 Reply with quote

bonanova wrote:
Can you find the diner?

Not necessarily through asking him questions. You haven't even established if he knows where the diner is. Finally, even if you know where the diner is, I don't see that it will help you get there -- after all, there's a huge troll blocking the way.

Assuming he lied to your first question, you then can't count on the responding with silence option for your second question. Perhaps his lie in the response is about that clause, and his actual response to logical paradox is always to say 'no.'
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lostdummy
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:47 am    Post subject: 6 Reply with quote

bonanova wrote:

You ask him, will you answer truthfully any yes/no question that you can, responding with silence if you cannot?


I'm not sure that this question can help you in any way:
- truthteller would answer YES
- liar would also answer YES, since true answer would be 'no'
- random in 'lying' mode would also answer YES

Only way this could be helpful is if troll is 'random', and he knows that he will be 'random' , and if he is currently in 'truth' mode , he could answer NO.

So, "No" as answer would tell you that person is 'random'. But "Yes" as answer does not tell anything as far as I can see.

Of course, it is possible to solve such "3 paths and truth/liar/random" without any prior question, but then it would be chestnut ;p
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Zag
Tired of his old title



PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:34 pm    Post subject: 7 Reply with quote

I'm sure that you can word the question with a double negative, so that liars and truthtellers will give the same responses. The hole, here, is whether or not you can count on a liar (or a random in lying mode) to remain silent if there is no way to speak without uttering a truth. Knowing that is your assumption, he would effectively be lying by misleading you, even though the answer that he gave is strictly true.

But I like bgg's solution, where you end up with the troll as your slave.
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DejMar
(Possibly a robot)



PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:14 pm    Post subject: 8 Reply with quote

A reply to the question would be the same as making the material conditional statement: "(I) will respond in silence if (I) will not answer truthfully any yes/no question (I am) able." In order for this material conditional statement to be logically FALSE is if the respondant were to respond in silence AND if the respondant would answer truthfully any yes/no question he were able. Thus a liar would answer truthfully if he were able (of course he is unable) but would do so in silence. A truth teller would not respond in silence as doing so would be the same as a FALSE statement overall. Yet, not being silent, but responding with an answer of NO to the question would be just as TRUE for the overall statement. Nonetheless, the troll did respond with YES. As for one who randomly responds with the truth or a lie, the same possible verbal responses as the truth teller ("YES" or "NO") or the non-verbal silence of the liar can still be expected from the troll. As the troll did respond with a YES, all that can be deduced is that the troll is not the liar, though if he were one who randomly lied, he might still do so..
A question that is phrased properly may exist in which either the truth or a lie would provide the same correct answer. Though I have not determined this particular question, theoretically the answer to that of the puzzle's question in the number of questions needed is one.
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