Let's critique one another's poker play!

[Mackay]

Not normally with AK (though I would cold-call sometimes to vary my line a bit) and maybe about 1/2 of the time with AQ. But a lot of other players would do so very consistently, and I was simply discussing what I would do in X situation with X hand. There wasn't enough information on this player at this point to know whether they would play it that way.

Edit: Was there anything else particularly wrong with my feelings on the flop situation so far? I'm in this to learn, which is the only reason I'm throwing my probably-inferior critique/opinion in there in the first place, so don't go easy on me. I want to know exactly why and how badly I'm wrong - it will annoy me, but it will also make me money, so .

[Zag]

[Antrax]

I fold AQ to a raise, especially if it gets called. There's just no way to feel comfortable if an ace hits.
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After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick!

[Mackay]

A single raise preflop? We may have to agree to disagree on that one. (Basically what Zag said)

[Amb]

We had an unusual game yesterday:

Flop was 9D 9S JS

Two players stayed in betting high. One of which was odd considering at this point he had nothing.

After that: TS QS came out.

The one player who raised sensibly had 9J in hand getting Nines full of Jacks Full House.

The other player had a straight flush with 9TJQK Spades. The full house guy couldnt believe it.

I had folded after the flop with 2C 3H.

Nice huh.

Have you had anything like that Mackay?

[Mackay]

Not quite like that, but similar.

When I got my first (and only, to date) Royal Flush I slowplayed my nut flush on the turn in the hope that I could get a bit more money in if one of my two opponents was also chasing a flush. I rivered my royal and got value-bet into. The poor guy who'd turned the full house must have been elated when I raised. As for the guy with the 9-high flush, I guess he was just feeling lucky.

Unfortunately it was a tournament, and I was so excited from getting the Royal that I went on happytilt and busted not too long afterward

[Dented Ford]

Oh holy moloney!
What on earth does slowplaying your nut flush and rivering your royal mean? This isn't going to head in a different direction like Courk's balsa thread is it?

[The Ragin' South Asian]

Now that's what I call "playing your cards right"

[Zag]

[Antrax]

What am I going to do with AQ in a family pot?
As for your other comment, tourists or no tourists, they will play AK, and they will raise with it. Unless there's a very clear criterion that'll tell me, postflop, whether their kicker is J or K, I see no reason to get myself into trouble with AQ.
_________________
After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick!

[Zag]

[Amb*]

Texas Holdem. On the flop came "AS, 9C, JS" I bet some coinage. (Not real money though, I wont do that) I sat there going "Please a 10S in my head"

It came up on the fourth card....

ROYAL FLUSH... I had KS/QS in my hand. I had already drawn the others in by 5000 each. With that, and my relatively small pile of coins left, I checked after the first card and the others all called me in.

I cleaned two players out and near wiped out the third!

Fantastic.

Next hand I got QQQ88 as well - but lost to Ace high. Yup, because the center ended up with QQQKQ and the Ace beat my 8. Damn

I still won the whole game, because the third player didnt have much to raise me with by then. So I didnt lose much on it.

[Antrax]

Why did you bet when the board was QQQKQ? What did you think you were holding?
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After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick!

[groza528]

It sounds like he had a pair of 8s and he was betting on the full house until the fourth queen came up. With only one player left it's still reasonable to hope they don't have another king (this from someone who doesn't play poker... maybe it's not reasonable at all) but I hope he stopped when the last queen came up.
And Amb, you mean his ace beat your king

[Zag]

Grats on your royal! I still have yet to have one. In fact, I've only had two straight flushes, and one of them LOST! As 2s made the nut flush on the turn, then the losing straight flush on the river.

[Zag]

(Let's wake up this thread.)

I was playing in my home game last night (till about 4:00am) and I had a couple interesting hands -- one is rather illustrative, I think. (For any bottom line folk, I ended up ahead about $120, which is a lot for the game structure.) One amusing point is to note what my opponent held in each of these.

The game is no limit hold'em with 10 cent / 20 cent blinds. Stacks are very deep for all these hands, which makes (or, at least, should make) a big difference in the play. (Generally when stacks are 100 big blinds, this is considered "deep stack" poker, and 200 big blinds is "very deep.")

Hand 1. Playing 6-handed, in the cut-off (one before the button), I pick up AJo and two limpers to (including my wife). I raise to $1, button and my wife call. Flop is A J 4 with 2 clubs and my wife bets out $2. I consider that she could have 44 but I think she would check-raise with that in order to trap the caller. (Yeah, we play a serious home game.) I put her on a good jack (KJ or QJ) or a bad ace, so I just call to see if the button will stay in and to lay a trap for the turn.

Turn is (A J 4) 9, and my wife bets out again, $3. Something bugs me about the bet, so I just call. Button folds.

River is another 9, and she bets again, $5. I know that she would know better than to bet again with a bad ace -- that would be better played by checking and snapping a bluff. AK that was slow-played preflop? Maybe. A big pair slowplayed? KK or QQ would probably not have fired all three rounds, but maybe -- now considering it a bluff to get me off my ace. AA or JJ? Slim odds, and probably would have check-raised the flop. Bluffing the whole way with QT? Not out of the question, especially if it was a flush draw the whole way. (Flush never got there.)

Anyway, I think I'm still ahead and consider raising, but then I consider. Even if I am ahead, there aren't many hands that I beat with which she will call -- most of the hands I beat will just fold anyway, so I wouldn't gain anything by raising. However, if I'm behind, she can and could raise. This is a classic case that Doyle talks about in Super System, where, even though you think you are ahead, you should just call. (Even if your raise would be all-in, which this wouldn't, raising still only causes worse hands to fold and better hands to take more of your money than they would have.)

She shows me A9. Gaaaaaaaah!!! She needed runner-runner nines to win, and got them.

----------------------------------

Hand 2. (The biggest hand of the night.) My son-in-law, who is a very good player (won $4100 for first place in a $100 buy-in tournament in Vegas on their honeymoon, and has finished in the money in many tournaments at our local poker room) and I are the two big stacks, with over $60 each (his $66 to my $71, it turned out). We are down to five-handed, and play is getting very aggressive.

Under the gun (first to act after the big blind) I pick up AKs. Since most pots have seen a preflop raise, I limp, hoping to raise and isolate. To my chagrin, everyone limps and we have a family pot for $0.20 each.

However, the flop of A K A rather makes up for it. Check, check, and I check to my son-in-law, who is looking rather alert all of a sudden. He bets $1 and gets two calls!! I smooth-call, so there is $5 in the pot.

Turn is (A K A) 9, a check to me and I check. He bets again, as predicted ($4), and other players drop. I raise to $15, expecting to take it right there, but he reraises me all in. I felt a little bad, because at this point I knew it was boat over boat. However, family may be family, but poker is poker! Of course I called with my stone-cold nuts and he went white as a sheet. He had A9, and the 9 on the turn had sealed his fate. He is a very good player and I honestly think he could have gotten away from that if the turn hadn't hit his kicker.

[Antrax]

In the first hand, you didn't consider it might be a semi-bluff from a flush draw?
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After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick!

[Zag]

[Zag]

Playing NL Hold'em last night, 25c/50c blinds. I have $52 in front of me, the one interesting opponent has me covered.

I was dealt 6s 7s in latish position, and limp in.
Big blind raises to $2.50, 2 callers and then I call
Flop is 3s 4s Qd. Check to me, I bet 1/2 pot bet. Only big blind calls
Turn is 5h, giving me a straight. Check to me, I bet he calls -- Looking like he has a flush draw.
River is 5s !! He bets out, I raise, he reraises all in. It was sweet. The moron didn't even have the nut flush himself. He had Js 10s. He didn't put me on a set (making a boat on the end) and he certainly didn't put me on a straight flush.

[MNOWAX]

i wish that i had fish like that in my game!!!
_________________
The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Zag]

[MNOWAX]

i actually dont like them anymore. I have had so many insane bad beats and it just feels off. i only play on fill tilt ( better freerolls), and i seem to be doing better on there.
_________________
The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Scurra]

[Zag]

No, his big mistake was the reraise. When he bet on the end and I raised, he should just have called. Even if he did think he was ahead, there aren't that many hands that he beats that would call him, but all the hands that beat him would. See the first hand of post 56, where I just called even though I was pretty sure I was ahead. This was the same situation (for him).

In any case, my betting was perfectly consistent with a set -- 33 or 44 in my hand.

[Scurra]

Actually, I do understand that!
I still think he shouldn't have bet on the River, but I do agree that the reraise was obviously wrong - your flush was likely going to be better than his at that point, and it ought to be clear you'd gone beyond a set.
So yeah, maybe calling him a moron is perfectly acceptable
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_{still Quiz Olympiad champion. Must get a life.
New definitions: COFFEE - someone who is coughed upon}

[MNOWAX]

zag one of the biggest things that you are forgetting is that this is a 25 -50 cent cash game,and the reality is that a lot of people just aren't perceptive enough to see that. From his betting pattern, it is obvious that he thought his hand was good (of which i don't know why with a board pair) and i not going to say he is a donk, but i do am going to say that he is nothing more than someone who overvalues hands and maybe thought moving in would push out a bigger flush, but i dunno, it just doesn't smell right anyway. it was a bad river raise, and loses out to rule #1 in my book: unless you smell major weakness, do not three bet all in on nothing short of the nuts.
_________________
The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Zag]

It sounds like you are in violent agreement, but your tone sounds like you are disagreeing. Maybe your point is that you disagree that he is a moron, in which case we are just niggling over the nomenclature.

I agree (almost) with your rule of thumb -- three-betting requires an extremely strong hand -- and that was the biggest violation he made, here. I don't quite say it requires the nuts, because I would do it in his position with quad fives, or even with queens full of fives, even though neither of those are the nuts and both would have lost. I stated it differently, but it works out to roughly the same rule.

Note, however, that even this is stack-dependent. If, for instance, we were playing super deep stack poker, where each stack was over 3000 big blinds, then his move might have been correct (as a low percentage play). That's why it is valuable to understand the reasoning behind your rule of thumb, so you know when it might not apply.

The reasoning is: On the river, heads up and faced with a raise, your consideration of whether or not to reraise is NOT determined by whether or not you think your hand is better than what you think he has. It is determined by whether or not you think your hand is better than the hands with which the opponent will call your raise. In other words, given that you are always putting your opponent on a range of hands, even though you think you beat the range, if most of the bottom end of that range is just going to fold to your reraise, it is incorrect to make the reraise in the first place.

[Zag]

By the way, his other mistake was calling on the turn. (I rather like his river bet, given that he got to the river.) I hadn't said it in my original post, but my turn bet was pot-sized. This means that he did not have odds to draw to his flush unless he is pretty sure that he will be paid off if he hits it. (He wouldn't have been, by the way, though he couldn't really know that.) It is possible that you have a rule in this case that you bet out as long as hitting your flush doesn't pair the board, and you check if it does pair the board -- that would be a reasonable approach. But you can't afford not to bet when you hit the flush. Remember that the call on the turn was wrong if you couldn't count on being paid off.

So, a call of a pot-sized bet on the turn with only a flush draw going for you is very marginally profitable, then you should only do it with a NUT flush draw. Why? Because when you are skating along a very thin line of profit, then one time in fifty where you hit your hand and lose will wipe out the very slim profit you eked out over the other 49. This is because hitting your hand and losing is far more expensive than not hitting your hand

[MNOWAX]

i agree with your points, however, there are a couple of factors that i havent seen come up yet.

what is your table image? what is his? we should do a full analysis on the hand and truly see if it was a bad play.

please if you dont mind, give me all the exact bet amounts please, and your thinking behind every action.
_________________
The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Zag]

[MNOWAX]

it looked like he tried to value bet his flush thinking that you just had top pair or an overpair.

Preflop you limp in late position after two people limp, your image suggests that you may have something and possible slow play. Big blind raises X4blinds and three other people come for the ride (10 pot)

Flop come and he checks his flush draw, you bet $5 dollars hoping to take the pot down. ( with that board anyone with a higher pair and that board full of draws would be nervous) Big blind calls with flush draw, thinking that if he hits he might bust you. From this, i'd put you on KQ or QJ, or more likely a pocket pair above 8's (Pot: $20)

The turn completes the straight he checks again, and predicable for a high pair, bets pot. it is unlikely that with that turn card, either one of your hands were helped, so he calls, thinking hes getting 2-1 on his call, and while it isnt great odds to draw to a flush( hes getting in his mind 18% chance of hitting his flush) the implied odds are that if he hits, he wins.(pot: $60)

This is where i think he totally lost it. when the river completes his vulnerable flush, betting $10 or so into a pot of 60 bucks it when hes checked every street just screams call me, and that hes hit a flush, and any raise there should show that he is beat regardless of what you actually had.i like the raise, however i would have just shoved if you only had 35-40, and not have bet thirty. any call that he would have made for 30 he would probably have made for a little more. This is also apparent in the fact that he shoves instead of calls means hes giving you an insane pot odds to call with anything. He just lost more money and is not thinking about what you have anymore, he just that he thinks he has you beat.
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The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Zag]

Sorry, I hadn't noticed that you had responded.

[MNOWAX]

Oh by the way zag, i have been playing poker for a little less than 10 years. so this isn't just some idiot that plays a little on the side critiquing the play. Not only do i have experience, but i have read many books and have been a part of many chat and forum discussions.

So yeah, i sort o know what i am talking about.
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The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Zag]

[MNOWAX]

pretty damn impressive.

So far, i have taken freerolls at full tilt poker, and have (at this point) a 120 dollar bankroll. My lifetime live game earnings total a little over $3000, and while my main focus is cash games, I do have a couple of 1st place tournament wins to my credit at turning stone casino last year. I have been to Foxwoods, love the place, and i plan on entering the satellites to the HPT main event at turning stone, as well as the Foxwoods poker classic in November.

oh and im 23.Zag, so yeah i am a youngster!
_________________
The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Zag]

[MNOWAX]

ugh. thats all i have to say.
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The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Antrax]

Not a bad story, but I dislike the raise, mostly because of the scenario where you get called by one of them, an ace flops, and he bets into you.
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After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick!

[Zag]

[Antrax]

Yeah, preflop - postflop, if you managed to get him all-in when he has one out, it seems your play is solid
Obviously people don't call preflop with Ak - it makes no sense. I basically agree with your analysis, only I tend not to rely on reads. If you think you can consistently outplay them, that's good. I think when an ace hits a variety of hands can bet into you, and it could get sticky. If you can chuck the A9 after hitting the ace based on that read, then it seems solid.
_________________
After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick!