Werewolf: the Apocalypse Mafia [GAME OVER - Town wins]

[spyrl]

Current Vote Count:

[jadesmar]

[itisally]

On day one most arguments seem to revolve around classical parings and conflicts of personality. For example, I would be surprised if Zag and Sentran didn't look askew at each other, MNOWAX will give little support for votes ( a method I agree with as there is so little evidence day one), Durryn will play by feel and so on.

So Zag, I guess that is how I felt about your read on Sentran,, typical. And that is good for you, because it makes you seem more town, but because it is a pattern it can be faked if you were both scum. So in play style it links you.. Meta gamey, a little? But on day one there is little else.

Jades, the difference between you and LIML is that you are vocal. Loud and obnoxious is not a scum tell to me. LIML responded, but didn't get all up in arms. You are in character for what I have seen from your play, she is playing a little close to her chest. Still, not a scum tell.

Durryn seems to be using the word invalid in conjunction with invalidate.. meaning that is would require evidence, not just a feeling.

Communication as a red herring is an inside joke much like were penguins. Really we told someone his plan fell apart because he didn't communicate and he told us communication is a red herring. (I think he meant scapegoat).
Am I feeling someone enough to vote? NO, checking in so I can’t be accused of lurking when we get to that later and hoping that my thoughts stimulate our brains into catching scum.
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I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.

[Jedo the Jedi]

I had a busy weekend of moving and staying atop homework, so I'll post my thoughts tomorrow. I have tried to keep up with the reading (on my phone), but I'm still not sure how I feel about this situation surrounding jadesmar.
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Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Sentran]

Posting for most players in this game seems to have slowed down to a crawl. I may have a different tack for day 1 scumtells (different for me, at any rate). I'll let you all know what I come up with if I find anything. In the meantime, communication is our greatest weapon. Without it, we will never catch the scum. Keep talking! Pressure people to post, force the lurkers out into the open, and analyze their posts for inconsistencies.
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Sentran
"Speaking of double negatives, I haven't read greylab yet today." - Lifeinmomland

[itisally]

I understand people's hesitancy to post. If a player is near silent they are unlikely to get attacked. At this early stage nothing is firm, everything is speculation.What I don't want is to loose good townie players just because they are more vocal!

I hate day one... it is most helpful in retrospect, but without participation it won't even be helpful then. I think that is why we eventually start pressuring those who lurk, not because they are scummy, but because we can't read them as not scummy (unscummy?) until they talk.
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I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.

[itisally]

Sorry for the double post, I wasn't sure I would have time.

Vote Counts
Amb/MNOWAX:15
Durryn :7
Itisally:7
Jadesmar: 38
Jedo the Jedi: 5
Lifeinmomland: 4
Perpentach: 8
Raearia: 7
Sentran: 11
Zag: 7

I am not seeing anything here yet. Zag is quieter than normal, but I think I remember him saying he was going to be quieter in the next game he played somewhere before we got PM’s. LIML is also quiet, but not unusually so. Jadesmar is very vocal, but was key in a couple of exchanges. Jedo is quiet, but he has been moving, making it hard to post.
Sentran’s comment was that it had gotten quiet, so I may look more at times and dates to see when things dropped off. , for now… headed to class.
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I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.

[Zag]

Thanks for doing that. I had planned to do it myself but haven't had the time.

While I appreciate the out, it was actually Jedo who had said in advance that he'd be quieter than normal. I've just been extremely busy at work, trying to make up for being deathly ill the week before last and missing several days. (Also, I was deathly ill the week before last.)

Unfortunately, our two short stacks, LIML and Jedo, have both been fairly content-free. Jedo's biggest stance was to agree with me about Sentran and then not vote. I don't recall that LIML has made any stance at all, though I have to admit that when you get attacked for your first post it's hard to convince yourself to post anything significant.

LIML and Jedo, how about each of you post a most-to-least suspicious list, at least. Here's mine:

Most:
Sentran
Jedo (esp. if Sentran is scum, then Jedo, too)
Perpentach (I honestly don't remember why I bumped him up, but it's only a little in any case.)

The cluster of "no opinion"
Durryn (in the cluster, but jumps way up if jades is scum), Raearia, Lifeinmomland, Itisally

MNO
jadesmar
Zag

[MNOWAX]

wow, there's a town-scum-town sandwhich at the bottom of your list.

i don't normally do these lists, but I'll give you my impression of my scum team.

Jadesmar, Duryn, Jedo ( policy)

in a 10 person game, 3 scum is not unheard of, but a little more unlikely.
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The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Lifeinmomland]

I have been quieter than I usually play. Really I was stunned that what I intended to be a simple "Here I am" post was attacked. I felt as though further response to Jades bizarre views would be useless. He is determined to believe I am scum and though I don't see his point, It is obvious to me from other interactions his mind will not be changed. Briefly I wondered at his dedication to this "tell", but after thinking about I think it must be just his play style.

I only hope he will stick to his guns so avidly when he finds a real tell. Asto

[Lifeinmomland]

Pardon the double post I am on my iPad and hit a wrong button thus sending out my post before I finished.



As to his accusation that I have not said I am not scum he is correct. I didn't say it because I find it useless. I know what I am and I know he is wrong and further after reading his posts I know nothing I say will change his mind. As to his claim of being town he may well be. I find it unlikely a scum would be so pushy. As the game continues I know he will figure out he is wrong and move on to topics that will help catch scum. Stating you are not scum is not proof you are not scum I will just have to prove myself within the game.

As to a list of suspicious people I don't have one yet. I look askance at everyone, like I do in all games I consider all posts from a "guilty to proven innocent" view, but no one has done anything much of substance and nothing stands out as scummy to me as of yet. It is moments like this I begin to think a policy lynch might not be a bad idea, but I do still hold out hope that someone will slip up and prove themselves questionable enough for a lynch.

UNVOTE Jadesmar

A note I do feel I should put out there, I have been playing the game this theme is based on for years.
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Who is John Gult?

[Jedo the Jedi]

I'm torn. I usually bandwagon on Day 1, but I honestly could be persuaded that either Sentran or Mom is scum. (Of course, the first game of Mom's, they were scum together. ) Since I actually believe jadesmar is more likely town right now, I'll just skip the bandwagon this time.

After staring at the screen for a few moments, I've decided to vote: Lifeinmomland. It's a gut feeling.

And I don't post lists.
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Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Perpentach]

Jadesmar, since the last time I posted you've leaped from, "I'm a little suspicious of LiML and Perpentach," to "I'm fairly certain that I have found 2 members of the mafia," all the way to "LiML and Perpentach are mafia, and you people aren't listening to me." You're rushing out responses quite quickly, and I think you're making huge jumps in your reasoning. I honestly think that all this means is that you're an aggressive townie.

This may be misinterpreted but I don't want to talk to jadesmar anymore. I can't think of anything else to write, and everything I think about turns into an argument against jadesmar. I'm looking at other posts and I should have some more thoughts on other players soon.

[jadesmar]

[Durryn]

I am still confused as to how my belief Jadesmar may be scum would make me scum if I am right....... Is it because I don't have a strong enough feeling in any direction to actually vote? If it is, wow.

I won't OMGUS like I used to, as I said or rather implied before, I am trying to be more cautious in my play.
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If there's anything around here more important than my ego, I want it caught and shot now! - Zaphod Beeblebrox

[Zag]

Durryn, as I said before, your post looked to me more like distancing than genuine opinion. I could easily be wrong here, and remember that I have this opinion only IF jadesmar is guilty (which I don't really think he is).

Of course, if he's innocent, then I could just as easily say that your post looked like a scum trying to make sure that bandwagon on j stays together but not wanting actually to vote because there are already too many of your scum buddies on it. But your post didn't feel to me like that.

Or maybe you were just too unsure to place a vote, and you're dithering, all perfectly innocently.

This is me, dithering. Like most day 1 opinions, none of it was super strong, but I feel it's important to lay out what I'm thinking across the board. It encourages others to do the same (especially those I specifically asked to do so), and there are often valuable nuggets when the scum make similar lists (which they obviously have to contrive).

Also, if I don't survive the night, I want to feel I've contributed as much as I can. (I'm recalling here the game in which I said "Whoop! Whoop! Here it is, Mackay's scum tell." Then I died -- possibly lynched, I forget -- but even after I flipped town those who had ignored me because they suspected me did not go back over my comments and lynch the scum I had pointed out for them.) For the record, this opinion is way flimsier than that other one, but I still feel the need to state it.

[Jedo the Jedi]

Considering the lack of conversation, I must have been a driving force of conversation in games past. We can only thank jadesmar for helping the discussion along this far.
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Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[itisally]

Unfortunatly we have a dismal history of voting for vocal townies on day one. Talking is risky.
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I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.

[Raearia]

As well as everyone seems to be treading carefully, I know that for me I just don't know what to say. I don't agree with Jades argument against LiML, to little evidence imo, but I do think he brings up great points in general about those who jumped into her defense immediately. I hate posting for postings sake, I do feel like with the lack of posting we are just procrastinating looking for that singular shining moment where we are like Jades in our conviction that someone is scum and must be eliminated.
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10289 is the end!

[Sentran]

For the record, I never felt I was jumping to the defense of LIML. I still watch and weigh her posts with the careful consideration I give to everyone. It was jades' sudden escalation over what I felt was an innocuous comment that has me voting for him. I have considered removing my vote, but I really have no better candidate at present.

As for conversation, I have tried more than once. All I've received in response is suspicion, votes, or dismissal. That leads me to not want to post much.
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Sentran
"Speaking of double negatives, I haven't read greylab yet today." - Lifeinmomland

[Jedo the Jedi]

I would like to remind everybody that this is not an information-less Day 1 as most other games are. We have had a Night 1, so some people do have information. Who is to say that people who have made votes are not doing so on the basis of that information? You can argue whether that is true and how you can trust someone, but you can't deny the possibility.

Additionally, I submit again this is why my view is that it is best to take the first bus that passes by, and ride it to the last stop. Better that than a town which sits in silence because each player is too afraid to draw attention to themselves.
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Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Sentran]

I have to admit that I'm starting to come around to Jedo's line of thinking. I am generally against policy lynches (and having policies in general, since Mafia is such a malleable game). One reason I'm against policies is that it allows good scum players to manipulate the outcome by abusing the known policies.

As for info from night 1, I was considering this as well, and matching it against any particularly damning or emphatic claims from people. Unfortunately, everybody appears to be walking on eggshells this game, so it's tough to find any good reads.
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Sentran
"Speaking of double negatives, I haven't read greylab yet today." - Lifeinmomland

[Zag]

[MNOWAX]

[Jedo the Jedi]

[itisally]

Is it wrong to think that MNOWAX is scummy because he is speaking logically??
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I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.

[Zag]

Sorry, but I really didn't see that you had contradicted yourself given the reason for not acting, all in the same post.

[Jedo the Jedi]

[Perpentach]

I'm going to make comments on people in isolation, so if my quotes are out of context it's intentional.

Durryn - I don't really see you as too suspicious. It may be because I sympathize with your cautious playstyle.

itisally -

[itisally]

Thats what funy about it. I can't remember the last time that MNO was so logical, but I can't remember the last time he was town either!

I don't really think he is scummy, if anything it brings him up in my list.. Speaking of lists, I didn't make one because I can't really put anyone in the "might be scum area. I have a lot of, "well that looks like town". This is mostly by feel and without much evidence.

Itisally, Durryn, MNOWAX
Raearia, Zag, Jedo the Jedi
Sentran, Perpentach, jadesmar, Lifeinmomland
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I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.

[Sentran]

I have been mulling this thought over, and sleeping on it, but I can't seem to shake it. The more I look over it, the more jades' comments seem intended to find scum (although I'm not sure I agree with the methods). That leads me to an unexplored road...
Unvote, Vote: Durryn
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Sentran
"Speaking of double negatives, I haven't read greylab yet today." - Lifeinmomland

[Raearia]

Perp to answer your question, when I see someone "jump" on the defense of a person I view it like this:

1- They are scum defending a buddy trying not to appear scum
2- they genuinely dislike the reasoning
3- They are town with more information on that person (same can be said for the accuser) since Jedo has reminded that there was a night phase.
4- They are scum trying to make the accused look even more guilty as a scapegoat.

So when I say jades made some good points, this is what I mean he brought them up and I considered what he said and applied my own possibilities to what he said.

While your questioning his reasoning isn't exactly jumping to LIML defense it still falls into my thought process.
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10289 is the end!

[Jedo the Jedi]

[Zag]

Ahh. That is a much better response and explanation than you offered before. It's too bad, because I so enjoy suspecting you. If I start off every game suspecting you, then eventually I'll be right and I'll get to claim brilliance.

Of course, last game was the first in a while that I haven't started off suspecting you, and you turned out to be scum. Now that I am less suspicious of you in this game, maybe that's a sign that you must be scum, after all.

Have I mentioned before that I hate Day 1?

[itisally]

The problem with a very tentitive vote is people would then want me to proove it and I would be seen as scummy if I couldn't support it. That is why I like lists and FOS.

Asking for a weak vote is asking to people to tie themselves to others for no good reason.
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I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.

[Raearia]

I agree with what Ally is saying. I have seen when someone just throws out a vote on a person with little reasonings then they are looked at with suspicion (not counting those who go off of gut votes) as scum.

I aslo think with everyone playing so carefully this game it is making those who are voting stand out even more then they normally would if everyone wasnt playing so carefully.

I don't like voting just to vote and I have yet to find a good reason to vote anyone. I don't want to be accused of lurking, it's just that I don't see a valid reason to vote anyone.
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10289 is the end!

[Zag]

So, I reread the whole thread this evening. I am still struck by Sentran; even if you don't think that his question about werewolves was scummy, you have to agree that he's doing a lot of jumping around with his vote, looking for something to stick.

That said, I did see something which I think might be revealing, though it's more of a gut reaction, a gestalt of her entire approach, that I am reacting to -- I can't really point to a specific thing. And I really hate to do this, because if I'm wrong it is going to look really scummy. But I've come to the conclusion that Lifeinmomland is the most likely scum. I'm keeping Sentran as a close second, and if he jumps on this bandwagon it might be enough to make me think I've misread and should get off. (not really. I expect to leave my vote here until the end of the day, which I'm now hoping is soon.)

vote: Lifeinmomland

[jadesmar]

[Sentran]

First off, Zag has accused me of fishing. He is 100% correct. I am fishing for scum though, not for roles. There is a vast difference. He has also accused me (again correctly) of switching my votes several times. It's day 1, and I am by no means convinced of my current reads. Such is the way of day 1.

[Jedo the Jedi]

This wealth of silence is why I prefer deadlines from the beginning. It provides a measure of consistency by which both parties know they have to accomplish their task. If this was based on the movement of the sun (a real "day" and "night"), you couldn't change those things at will. The length of night is fixed (when scum get to chat freely), why not the day? Seems unbalanced against the scum...

(This is not a critique of the mod(s) of this game. This is a general theory critique from which I base the following comment.)

Act like there is a deadline. Speak. Vote. Inaction aids the scum. Most games are designed so that town can make mistakes. With that built in, don't be shy. If we're going to be silent now, then we might as well just pick from those with votes, finish the deed, and continue moving the game along. Bemoaning the state of things helps nothing.
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Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.