Ask about Atheism

[Jedo the Jedi]

Maybe you could reference the argument you already had elsewhere...
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[jadesmar]

[jadesmar]

[Jedo the Jedi]

I just meant a link. You don't have to read it if you don't want.
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[jadesmar]

[extro...*]

[jadesmar]

[extro...*]

OK, I'll take that as "the experience of yellow can't be described".

Similarly, we can't describe the difference between the experience of seeing a color, and the experience of hearing a tone. In everyday human existence, we know experience of colors usually correspond to light of certain wavelengths striking the retina, and we know that experience of sounds corresponds to compression waves of certain frequencies moving through air eventually moving tiny hair cells in the inner ear. But that tells us nothing about the subjective experiences, or the differences between them.

Our taste buds respond to only five kinds of taste. Can we describe them to an alien so he can know if salt tastes the same to us as it does to him? Perhaps salt tastes "sweet" to him. How to describe "sweet" and "salty", in a way that actually describes?

We could go on and on. Subjective experiences can't be described in a meaningful and actually descriptive, way.

[jadesmar]

[Nsof]

[Jedo the Jedi]

[Nsof]

[Jedo the Jedi]

Understood.
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[jadesmar]

After a quick search, here are some peer-reviewed scientific research papers related to colour vision.

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Higher order color mechanisms: Evidence from noise-masking experiments in cone contrast space; Thorsten Hansen and Karl R. Gegenfurtner
J Vis January 23, 2013 13(1): 26; doi:10.1167/13.1.26

Systematic biases in adult color perception persist despite lifelong information sufficient to calibrate them; Aline Bompas, Georgie Powell, and Petroc Sumner
J Vis January 16, 2013 13(1): 19; doi:10.1167/13.1.19

Blobs versus bars: Psychophysical evidence supports two types of orientation response in human color vision; Mina Gheiratmand, Tim S. Meese, and Kathy T. Mullen
J Vis January 2, 2013 13(1): 2; doi:10.1167/13.1.2

Flashed stimulation produces strong simultaneous brightness and color contrast; Sae Kaneko and Ikuya Murakami
J Vis November 1, 2012 12(12): 1; doi:10.1167/12.12.1

Luminance contours can gate afterimage colors and "real" colors; Stuart Anstis, Mark Vergeer, and Rob Van Lier
J Vis September 6, 2012 12(10): 2; doi:10.1167/12.10.2

Color constancy investigated via partial hue-matching; Alexander D. Logvinenko and Anja Beer
J Vis April 30, 2012 12(4): 17; doi:10.1167/12.4.17

When viewing natural scenes, do abnormal colors impact on spatial or temporal parameters of eye movements?; Tien Ho-Phuoc, Nathalie Guyader, Frédéric Landragin, and Anne Guérin-Dugué
J Vis February 3, 2012 12(2): 4; doi:10.1167/12.2.4

Low-level motion analysis of color and luminance for perception of 2D and 3D motion; Satoshi Shioiri, Masanori Yoshizawa, Mistuharu Ogiya, Kazumichi Matsumiya, and Hirohisa Yaguchi
J Vis June 26, 2012 12(6): 33; doi:10.1167/12.6.33

Color names, color categories, and color-cued visual search: Sometimes, color perception is not categorical; Angela M. Brown, Delwin T. Lindsey, and Kevin M. Guckes
J Vis October 5, 2011 11(12): 2; doi:10.1167/11.12.2

Color selection, color capture, and afterimage filling-in; Jihyun Kim and Gregory Francis
J Vis March 30, 2011 11(3): 23; doi:10.1167/11.3.23
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So, at the very least, that is being studied scientifically. Which does kind of negate the claim that this can't be studied scientifically.

[extro...*]

[jadesmar]

[extro...*]

[Jack_Ian]

Regarding the difference between experiencing sight and sensing some wavelength of light, here is an article where a guy tells of his experience of partially regaining his sight after 43 years of blindness.
It's quite fascinating.

[Jedo the Jedi]

That is fascinating. I particularly liked that October 18 entry.

[BraveHat]

[BraveHat]

[Nsof]

[Scurra]

[jadesmar]

[Scurra]

That's why I specifically said that you may choose to reject such evidence, because we're in very murky territory indeed, and where the arguments almost always end up as definitional ones.

In the first case, we'd have to start by defining the moral code by which you and I might separate "bad actions" from "good actions", before we even got into trying to decide whether someone doing an act "in the name of God" is the same as doing an act "for God". (Those of us who are Christians, for instance, have a pretty simple yardstick, defined in Matthew 25: 31-46, which is summarised as "whatever you did for one of the least of these, you did for me/ whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me." although again this is probably the wrong thread for that.)

In the second case, the main problem is that a universal moral code pretty much is the core component part of religion, which means that neither of us could adequately prove our position to the satisfaction of the other.. (Which is, of course, the worst sort of argument, when both sides are "right". )
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[novice]

Extro, I would be interested to hear what it is you're getting at with your Socratean dialogue regarding colours and consciousness. You said we all would know what you were referring to, it's not clear to me yet. I think maybe you're saying there's some aspect of our consciousness that can only be explained by God?

If it's been covered already elsewhere, I'll accept a link.

Somewhat related to this discussion, I recommend the book The Righteous Mind - How Good People are Divided by Politics and Religion.

[extro...*]

[novice]

[extropalopakettle]

You can't describe what your experience of seeing a color is like. You can't describe the sensation of smelling a rose. How can you have a sensible theory that explains why neurons behaving a certain way produce a sensation like the smell of a rose, when you can't say a single thing to describe that sensation? A theory can't explain why some specific physical phenomena produces _______. What is _______? Something I can't describe, or tell you how to measure or detect. And you're going to have a sensible theory explaining it? Explaining WHAT? You can't even say.

[extropalopakettle]

[novice]

[Jedo the Jedi]

[extropalopakettle]

[novice]

What is your answer to these questions, Extro?

[novice]

Anyway, I feel like you're muddying things up, it's quite simple. Seeing the colour yellow triggers a unique neural reaction (a sensation) that the brain recognizes. The language center has associated the sensation with a language term, which is the agreed-upon designation for objects identified by individuals as yellow. It doesn't matter if each individual has a different sensation, they all identify it as yellow. Because they've learned to associate their internal sensation of yellow with the language term for yellow (when they learned their language).

And I'm not impressed by your attempts to invalidate my ability to discuss these matters based on philosophical musings of indescribability, when we are, in fact, discussing them. There's nothing in my model of how consciousness works that is dependent on what the sensation of yellow feels like to you.

[Elethiomel]

I guess what he's getting at is perhaps how you can know if someone else is truly conscious, or merely behaving as if he is.

Personally I'd say that you can't know, and it's really not a meaningful distinction.

Sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth, extropalopakettle.

[extropalopakettle]

[extropalopakettle]

[Jedo the Jedi]

I'm guessing this goes beyond yellow making me happy, or is that what you mean? (I certainly feel like I need a translator for all that garbbledy-gook.)
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[extropalopakettle]